Simon Holmes à Court is a business entrepreneur and political activist who founded Climate 200, the group that part-funds the teal movement – but we’ll get to that.

Fitz: Simon, to begin with, the political earthquake du siècle, what is your explanation for Trump’s staggering victory?

SH: It shows the ascendancy of an entirely different kind of politics where – at least in America – you can win big with a post-truth campaign built on grievance, division, racism, misogyny, machismo and “alternative” facts, all aimed at resonating with that huge part of the population who have become deeply cynical with politics.

Simon Holmes à Court: “We don’t target seats … communities step up, and if they’re on a good wicket, we’ll do our best to support their campaign. We support community campaigns, not candidates.”Credit: James Alcock

Fitz: What chance Australia will head down a Trumpian path?

SH: Trump’s win will embolden the far right in Australia … making the success of the independents super important.

Fitz: You mean your teals?

SH: They’re certainly not “mine”, and they are not necessarily teals; they’re community independents. I still don’t know what the definition of a teal is ...

Fitz: They’re bigger than a bread box, fabulously feisty, nearly always female, and politically funded by Climate 200, run by you. Teal is the shorthand used by most of us to describe them to make them distinct from other independents who usually don’t win. The point is, as a political player yourself, how do you think, on a granular level, the Australian political dynamic will react to the political triumph of Trumpism?

SH: It’s pretty clear that Dutton has been paying attention, as he’s already imported some of the techniques employed by Trump. His fact-free nuclear debate thought bubble and his aggressive “othering” of non-white Australians and refugees should be a wake-up call to all. Dutton’s Svengali, Gina Rinehart, is partying at Mar-a-Lago with Nigel Farage as we speak!

Fitz: To be fair, Peter Dutton has no Trump-like atrocities on his record, and if he had even a hundredth of Trump’s proven record to his name, the Australian electorate would surely reject him outright.

Teal appeal: Independent MPs Allegra Spender, Zali Steggall, Sophie Scamps, Zoe Daniel and Monique Ryan.Credit: Alex Ellinghausen

SH: No, that’s not true at all. Dutton has localised the Trumpian tactics to Australian tastebuds. Because of our compulsory voting, Australian elections are won from the centre, not the extremes, so Trump’s playbook needs an Aussie translation. But if you think back to Peter Dutton’s comments on “African gangs”, our Pacific neighbours, his demonisation of refugees, his attack on Woolworths around Australia Day, his adoption of seriously divisive tactics through the Voice and his content-free policy pronouncements, he’s absolutely following the playbook – right up to, yes, his embrace of billionaires like Rinehart. Don’t forget how, earlier this year, he obsequiously crossed the country for a 40-minute appearance at her birthday party. Dutton’s Trumpian similarities are very pronounced.

Fitz: I’m going to tell the ABC you said what Laura Tingle said, and you will be in BIG TROUBLE! But, moving on, when will you launch your funding campaign for the next election?

SH: We never stopped … many of the 11,200 donors we had at the last election have been making monthly donations. Last election, we raised $13 million to support 23 campaigns. $13 million sounds a lot, and it is, but the major parties’ income was over $200 million each over the last electoral cycle. In any case, it’s super important that a community does most of their own fundraising … so that’s a big factor for us. We don’t have the capacity to fund the whole movement, and frankly, if you can’t inspire your community into donating to you, you’re probably not going to excite them into electing you. But we’re telling everyone … for the best chance of holding back Trumpism from Australia, donate and volunteer early and often.

Fitz: Is there a board giving approval as to who gets Climate 200’s golden seal of approval? Can you be outvoted?

SH: We have a committee that looks at all the requests from communities wanting help and makes a decision on support. It meets every week, I’m just one of the members. The discussions can be very robust, but we always reach a consensus.

Fitz: What sitting members of the major parties are in your cross-hairs for the next election? Who are you targeting?

SH: I really want to get away from the language of “targeting”. We don’t target seats … communities step up, and if they’re on a good wicket, we’ll do our best to support their campaign. We support community campaigns, not candidates.

Fitz: Will current teals in the House of Reps all stand again, and will you be funding them?

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SH: We’re ready to support all of them again, plus six or seven who did really well last time and came close, plus a bunch of communities having a crack for the first time. I expect we’ll support 20 to 25 campaigns in total.

Fitz: Have you worked with them on specific policies that are likely to be successful?

SH: The Libs and some in the media have this misogynistic idea that I control the “teals”. That’s what member for Wentworth Allegra Spender raised at the National Press Club the other week. I bump into MPs at events from time to time, and meet maybe a couple of times a year, but I’m not a part of their political lives ... For example, I’ve spent more time with the Liberal shadow minister for climate change and energy, Ted O’Brien, than Zali Steggall in the last 12 months. They don’t tell me what they’re going to do and nor should they. They are independents.

Fitz: Sure, but the issue Allegra Spender also made headlines for recently was reportedly lobbying The Australian Financial Review to get you removed from a list of powerbrokers. A tad hard, surely, to maintain you are only the piano player and weren’t even there on the night when you founded and funded – the latter at least, initially – the movement that is every chance of soon presiding over the balance of power in Australia?

SH: I don’t start campaigns. I don’t choose where indies run. I don’t choose what issues they run on … and in total, I personally contributed less than 1 per cent of the indies’ funding at the last election – and the spending of the major parties was each nearly 10 times more than the entire indies movement spent.

Fitz: Yeah, but if a fantastic community independent arose somewhere whose policy platform countenanced, say, co-operating with the LNP to remove the ban on nuclear energy in Australia, it is surely unlikely they would get the Simon Holmes à Court tick of approval?

SH: I’m not anti-nuclear ... I’m on record as saying John Howard should never have banned nuclear. Nuclear makes sense in some places, and I really like nuclear – I’m in awe of the technology – but it just doesn’t make sense in Australia, with our bountiful renewable resources and our challenge to replace coal in the next decade. As for C200, it doesn’t have a position on nuclear. The job of C200 is to level the playing field so that community independents have a fighting chance against the big party machines, and we want to promise our donors that we support candidates who have a strong position on climate, integrity and gender equity.

Fitz: Let’s say that in the next election, the obvious happens and neither major party gets a majority in the House of Reps, giving the teals the balance of power. Would you expect to be consulted by them as to which party they support?

SH: Absolutely not. I do not discuss decisions or policies with any of them. To give you a concrete example, about six weeks after the last election, there was a summit in Canberra on electric vehicles, and I was randomly standing in the line for the buffet at lunch behind an independent who turned around and asked me what I thought of the New Zealand transport minister’s EV policy. I replied, “If I tell you what I think about it, it’ll be our very first discussion about policy. Do you really want to cross that Rubicon?” And she said, “No, let’s not.” And I’ve held true to that to this day. I am not consulted on policy, nor would I want to be. The independents are answerable to their electorates, that’s it.

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Fitz: But surely, their ongoing financing by Climate 200 gives you some measure of control?

SH: None. This is the most pure form of democracy we have in Australia. Most Australians don’t know that the major party MPs when they walk into the chamber, pick up a pager from a pigeonhole with their name on it that tells them which way to vote. And we saw what happened to the one Labor senator who decided she might bring her conscience to her vote – it was brutal. But, here, we’re talking about a crossbench where every one of those independents treats every vote as a conscience vote. It’s the very heart of the strength and resilience – and appeal – of the independents’ movement.

Fitz: You mention Ted O’Brien. Surely, as a nuclear exponent but without the prestige of being the opposition leader, he’d be a likely teal target?

SH: I think I’m going to have to explain this until the day I die: Climate 200 doesn’t “target” MPs ... but as it happens, there are four strong coastal community campaigns in Queensland, two on the Gold Coast and two on the Sunshine Coast, and that includes Fairfax ... once upon a time held by Clive Palmer and his animatronic dinosaurs, currently held by Ted O’Brien, and perhaps next year held by someone who genuinely represents their community … not just votes the way they’re directed by the party whip! Oh, one thing of interest … strong community campaigns have emerged in Dickson and Farrer, held by Peter Dutton and Sussan Ley.

Fitz: Who have you got leading the charge against them?

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SH: I’ll correct you every time. We don’t “run candidates”. We’re not running against Dutton or Ley. But what I can tell you is that there are very strong groups in Dickson and Farrer that are highly skilled and kick-arse – they came to us long after they were up and running, holding sausage sizzles at community markets and well-attended forums in their communities. We’ve taken a close look at what they’ve achieved, and we’re up for giving a hand to both in order to make sure that they can run professional campaigns against formidable incumbents. Farrer has already made their selection, an amazing local woman – Michelle Milthorpe – who I think will go really well. Other ones to watch are Alex Dyson in Wannon, Kate Hook in Calare, Nicolette Boele in Bradfield, Caz Heise in Cowper. They are all proven candidates, all came second last time and are all excellent chances this time.

Fitz: I find Nicolette Boele in Bradfield particularly interesting, held by Liberal moderate Paul Fletcher. I live not so far away and know she has been going flat out for the last 3½ years fundraising and doorknocking, and is pretty much already the shadow member for Bradfield. Does Climate 200 do internal polling, and what shape is she in?

SH: Nicolette did incredibly well at the last election – the biggest swing against a sitting Liberal. It’s been a few months since we polled her, but it was incredibly encouraging – she had a higher primary vote than the successful independents in 2022 had two months out from the election. One thing to note about Bradfield is there’s only one Liberal-held seat in the country that voted Yes in the Voice referendum, and a significant credit goes to the campaign that Nicolette’s team ran.

Fitz: I’m guessing the Holmes à Court empire has a dozen sheep stations. Would you put one of them on Nicolette winning?

SH: Yes. Seeing as we’re in Melbourne Cup week, let’s say she’s an odds-on favourite.

Fitz: Finally, let’s finish on the state of play between you and your most famous nemesis, Josh Frydenberg. Have you two finally buried the hatchet?

SH: I’ll say that I and the good people of Kooyong, Goldman Sachs and even Josh Frydenberg himself – in his recent comments noting he would not be attempting a comeback at the next election – are all in agreement that he’s in the best place right now that he could be. He chose to sit out this election, and I’m not surprised, given the quality of our incumbent.

Fitz: I hate to correct you, but I’m going to have to, and it hurts me more than it does you. She’s not your incumbent, OK? She’s the community’s incumbent!

SH: [Laughs.] Yes, but I’ve lived in Kooyong for 22 years, and the formidable Monique Ryan is now my local member, so it’s OK. Not the gotcha you were hoping for!

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Dutton has localised Trumpian tactics: Holmes à Court