Would you consider provocation an intentional part of your songwriting process, either lyrically or sonically?
Definitely, there's aspects of Machine Girl that are meant to be provocative. I've always loved art that shocks and stuff that is boundary pushing. Especially when it comes not just sonically, but lyrically and thematically. I was, and I am, a big fan of stuff that was edgy, especially when I was younger. I grew up watching shows like Wonder Showzen and things that were, as a 14/15-year-old, exciting to me and informative of how to present something. Growing up in the late 90s, early 2000s, everything was kind of edgy and it was almost hard to be shocking. The culture was so fucked up and regressive at that time. But there are certain things like Wonder Showzen.
Musically I was really into this band, Mr. Bungle. To me, that was provocative and exciting even though I wouldn't really consider them political. But finding something that when I showed it to other people, they're genuinely freaked out and off put by was exciting to me. It was like this threshold where you had to dig the creepy serial killer clown aesthetic to listen to it. And so that was something early that informed how I approached my stuff with Machine Girl. Another big influence, specifically on Machine Girl, was Venetian Snares.
Oh my god yeah, fantastic.
He's the godfather of those edgy breakcore sounds. Some of the albums are too fucked up even for me, and I never really could get into it. But early in the Machine Girl days, I made tracks that were edgy in the way of a little kid trying to be edgy. In ways that are now embarrassing for me.
Especially as your music has progressed, it feels like there's a more distinct message on MG Ultra than there was on older albums. Do you think your perspective has changed a lot over that time?
Yeah, definitely. Just thinking more high concept about things and about what I want to make. Early on, I wasn't really thinking high concept, but starting with Wlfgrl, ever since then I've always tried to cohesively tie it together with some kind of general theme or idea.
They all do feel uniquely contemporary. The gap between MG Ultra and Psychowarrior is the shortest period of time between two projectsyou've ever had, and it's your first follow up as well. Why do you think MG Ultra specifically required a sequel album?
Well, the truth is that the intention from the beginning was, “We're gonna do these sister albums." And really that came from not a thematic place, but more of an aesthetic place, because we had started writing material where I was playing bass guitar, and then more and more stuff with guitar on it. We also had so much material that was more electronic that I was like, “Instead of mashing all these together into one album, maybe we could just do two”, which could be cooler for fans anyway. And then I thought, maybe I can make a thematic link between the two.
To me, MG Ultra is the tee up for Psychowarrior. On MG Ultra the songs have a more pessimistic outlook. And overall, on Psychowarrior, the songs are more sort of anthemic, empowering. MG Ultra is taking a look at the insanity and psychosis that is taking hold among many people in the world, and Psychowarrior is about overcoming that. Fortifying your psyche to not fall victim to all forms of manipulation and brainrot that we're all constantly absorbing pretty much all day, every day.
I read another interview where you said MG Ultra isn't necessarily rebellious ‘fuck you’ against a specific target as much as it is a warning. It's very interesting to hear that this is the follow up, inciting rallying cry.
Yeah, and it's funny because it's more fun writing rallying cries than it is songs that are like, “everything just sucks”.
On that point about that pessimism. You absolutely speak to a disillusionment that a lot of younger audiences feel, and that's what made me a Machine Girl fan. Where do you personally think that disillusionment has come from, and why do you think your music moves people in response to it?
I think that the pessimism is something that everyone feels, even older generations. But why we're feeling that pessimism, and what people believe are the culprits of why things feel like they're getting worse are obviously different between generations and political ideologies. But I think for most young people it's just weird and fucked up, growing up in a world where everything is getting worse and there's no sign of it getting better.
That's what's so different between us and the older side of Gen X and Boomers. Most of their formative years, they grew up in a mostly optimistic world. I experienced the very tail end of that in the 90s. I'm old enough to have remembered 9/11. which is what I think changed everything, in America, at least. And ever since I've been 11 or 12 it's like, “oh, here's another manmade horror beyond my comprehension”. That's just pretty much every fucking day now. And so, this growing frustration and grim outlook, since, 'Because I'm Young and Arrogant [...]', is something that I've touched on, and it's clearly resonated with people, which is great.
It's funny, I was born two weeks after 9/11 so I've only ever existed post that western dream beginning to fade away. It was only something I was reminded of through its absence at every stage of growth. I hit seven around the time the financial crash happened, and any prospect of the future was always questioned. I had no vision of this mysterious before time that maybe you had at least, 10/11 years of remembering.
Yeah definitely. And it trips me out now, like when I meet you now that it's been almost 25 years since then that people like yourself that are adults, and oh man, you don't even know what it was like before this. It's hard to really articulate. And again, I was only a kid.
But it still has that much presence in your mind?
Yeah, and I'm from New York. I didn't grow up in the city, but I'm from Long Island. You can see Manhattan from a small hill in our town. And I remember kids that day getting pulled out of school because their parents worked at the World Trade Centre. It took years to really feel that 'Oh shit. Things are not the same'. That was the mark of becoming a preteen. It was the beginning of the end of my young childhood, and as I was applying for college was the financial crisis. And then, of course Donald Trump being elected. It's just like, every turn has been this horrible, historical moment that is a downward turn. Had I maybe been born 20/30 years earlier, the music I would have made probably wouldn't be so angsty and negative.
And maybe there wouldn't be a whole legion of people like me who have a desire for music like that. I think having music that does feel particularly punk is something that I've really valued. Maybe there wouldn't be people like you making it and people like me receiving if it weren't for all of these things happening.
Yeah, yeah. And it'll be sooner than you think but in 15 years you're gonna talk to some 20-year-old kid that's gonna be like, I was two when covid happened. I don't even remember pre covid, it's weird.
You have described Machine Girl in relation to punk as a label you use, which is interesting especially when people outside use industrial or hardcore. Why would you define Machine Girl as punk?
I feel like there's more baggage with genres like industrial and hardcore, whereas I like the broadness of punk. It's a misnomer at this point, it's a little bit meaningless. That's what I like about it. A lot of times when people will ask me what is Machine Girl? What kind of music do you make? A lot of times I just say cyberpunk, because it's not digital hardcore, it's not breakcore. And I just think it almost has more in common with the aesthetics and ethos of cyberpunk. So, I like referring it to it as that because you don't really think of Cyberpunk as music.
Would you relate it at all to punk historically?
I wouldn't be like “this is the natural evolution of punk” but maybe it is. I think time will tell. Even punk itself is this weird genre where there's not really a super clear lineage you could simply plot out. And also, punk as an ethos, as a rebellious counterculture, is something that isn't genre specific. I wouldn't even say it went from hardcore, but there's aspects of so many other genres of music that are arguably more punk than punk music. Early hip hop, early electronic and dance music. There's more genuine rebellion, in a lot of ways, than early punk music.
I listened to this podcast recently where this guy was arguing that punk had never been a leftist thing, and that it's actually this libertarian thing that got co-opted by the left, but the true ethos of punk is like this, 'fuck you I can say what I want'. It's not, “I'm gonna ethically do what I believe”. Again, I don't know if that's necessarily true, but it's an interesting thought. [...] capitalism absorbs everything, then will sell it back to you. It's pretty much almost impossible to avoid. Especially if your rebellion has an aesthetic, it will be co-opted and marketed.
I think it’s really interesting the way that you sample this wealth of pop culture. One of the things I discovered through a Machine Girl sample was Xavier Renegade Angel. But those samples are done with a deep sincerity, rather than a cynicism that does punctuate the rest of the music. Why is that sincere love of the things that you sample so important for your music?
I don't want the whole project to be this cynical, fucking miserable exercise in 'everything sucks'. I also think that one of the beautiful things about the art of sampling is that it's an opportunity to pass on to the listener. If it's a musical sample, it can keep music alive that might otherwise be lost for forever. It might bring a new audience and turn people on to a whole type of music they didn't know about. Even just sampling TV shows and movies and stuff.
It's funny specifically hearing you say that you discovered Xavier Renegade Angel through me sampling it. Because to me, that's fucking awesome. That's amazing. And even among the hundreds of thousands of people that’ve heard the songs that have Xavier samples in, one thousand kids got turned on to watching that show. Which is one of my personal favourite television shows ever. That to me is a beautiful thing, turning people on to a whole new work of art that then they can go off and find more stuff. To me, the joy of spreading the love of art and music through sampling is a really powerful, beautiful thing. I think the best example is Wlfgrl. And Ginger Snaps. It was just this weird thing where, for whatever reason, when I was making that music, that movie was on TV and I randomly caught it. And for whatever reason it just hit this weird, deep chord. And it's just so funny that there's definitely a sizable chunk of fans of that movie that are Machine Girl fans.
Thank you for your time.